Apple H-1B workers average $139,000 in pay, but outsourcers dominate visa program and pay far less

Opponents of the tech industry’s beloved H-1B visas for skilled workers have long argued that outsourcing companies abuse the program, gobbling up the lion’s share of visas to provide cheaper foreign labor to U.S. companies.

Now they have new ammunition, thanks to an executive order from President Donald Trump.

The federal government has released data showing that while Apple, Google, Amazon and others pay H-1B workers relatively well, outsourcers haul in the vast majority of visas and pay the workers much less, according to a new report. One outsourcing company took more than 21,000 visas, nearly three times the number taken by Apple, Google and Amazon combined.

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The H-1B has become a flashpoint in the immigration debate. Revelations about U.S. workers having to train their outsourced replacements before being laid off, including at UC San Francisco, have added fuel to the fire.

In April, Trump issued his “Buy American, Hire American” executive order, that promised rigorous enforcement of immigration laws. Under that order, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services has just released data for the first time on numbers of visas granted per employer, and included the amount of pay, digital magazine Quartz reported.

The federal department said it was “working on a combination of rulemaking, policy memoranda, and operational changes to implement the Buy American and Hire American Executive Order.

“We are creating and carrying out these initiatives to protect the economic interests of U.S. workers and prevent fraud and abuse within the immigration system.”

The data cover 2015 and 2016, and show that 67 percent to 69 percent of H-1B visas were for computer-related jobs. About 70 percent of all the visas went to natives of India, according to the data.

In 2016, U.S. IT firm Cognizant swept up 21,459 of the visas, with outsourcing firms Infosys, Tata, Accenture and Wipro netting a total of 37,725.

Amazon, Google and Apple took a combined 7,248.

Those three tech firms paid their H-1B workers substantially more than the $91,000 average, with Apple paying an average of $139,000, Google an average of $132,ooo and Amazon an average of $115,ooo.

The major outsourcers paid considerably less than the average, with Infosys and Cognizant paying $84,000, Wipro paying $74,000 and Tata paying $72,000.

The data also suggests that the big tech companies are in general bringing in more highly skilled workers under the H-1B program compared to the outsourcing firms. About 60 percent of these tech companies’ H-1B workers had master’s degrees, while most brought in by outsourcers had only bachelor’s degrees, Quartz reported.

 

Photo: Apple CEO Tim Cook speaks in front of a rendering of the company’s new “spaceship” headquarters during a product launch event in March 2016 at Apple in Cupertino. (Karl Mondon/Bay Area News Group)

 

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  • Geno

    Why are they giving jobs to foreigners when US Citizens need jobs?

    • steve

      Try to find qualified US candidates, too many sociology majors, not enough technology majors!!

      • Geno

        There are still plenty of qualified US Citizens.
        This is my industry and I know of too many instances when an H-1B visa holder replaced a US Citizen for cost savings — this action is supposed to be illegal under the H-1B visa program.

        • steve

          Where? I’ve been in IT for 36 years, we don’t have enough skilled US resources. I have over 200 Indian resources, spend more time than I like in India. If you have specific proof you should be supplying names, companies and situations to the authorities!! Tell your associates that have been displaced wrongly to apply for open jobs, there are over 1 million open tech jobs in the US.

          • Geno

            Hahahha!
            The only people that are supposed to provide oversight is the Senate. I have contacted my 3 senators and received lackadaisical responses.

            Basically, it is such a boondoggle, that oversight is impossible at this point. That is why I am suggesting a reset.

            Where are you located? I have been in it for about 33 years myself.
            I have worked in Texas most of my life, but I have also worked in Charlotte, Birmingham, and Springfield (MO).

          • timmy2000

            Then why are these companies not investing in college programs to make their future employees? because it they can cheat with the H1B program. Wages should have been rising with this significant demand, but instead they have stagnated when anotherH1B worker can be brought in on the cheap…

          • steve

            Where have IT wages stagnated? College programs exist, kids aren’t taking them, you have no clue! What part of over 1 million open tech jobs available today don’t you understand? That is after all of the H1B’s are used!! These are jobs paying anywhere from $100k to $150k.

          • annjohns

            Did you read the article? The average pay is $72K for H1Bs hired by the outsourcers.

          • steve

            I am not talking about H1B’s, I am talking about jobs currently open in the US. Taking a H1B from India and paying them $72k is misleading. The H1B gets transportation, housing and other paid for allowances that when added in takes the cost to over $100k. In India the same worker is getting the equivalent of $25k tops.

          • annjohns

            Housing? Uh, no. And yes there are filing fees for seeking H1bs. The only time transportation is paid by employer is if they fire the H1Bs and must provide a one-way ticket home. As far as the ‘million open tech jobs’, I really want to see those want adds….

          • Meteorlady

            After the tech bust of the 90’s many visa workers were still working while American workers were collecting unemployment. When they finally did go back to work their wages were less and they have remained in a slump for a long long time. In fact from what I’m reading here, the wages are just now up to what they were then. But not really because we’ve had inflation due to a rising national debt and borrowing so they are still not making as much.

          • Marty

            I was earning over 100k in 2001. 1 million open tech jobs? Tech is broad category. A quick search on Indeed will prove you are talking out of your a s s.
            You must work for a body shop

          • steve

            From Business Insider. No body shop.
            The tech industry has $21 billion worth of open, high paying jobs — here are the top 15

            Julie Bort

            Feb. 11, 2017, 11:00 AM
            855,246

          • Mark

            Only problem is, most of those companies complaining shortages are either disreputable (ie: Infosys, Tata, etc.), or are sitting on hundreds of applicants per job that they have available (ie: Google, Apple, etc.). Unwilling to consider the applicants in good faith before they hire foreign.

          • Mark

            There are not 1 million open tech jobs available. The mere suggestion of such is bizarre.

          • Marty

            The H1B abusers have been blowing smoke for 20 years. At least Trump has acknowledged the problem.
            These foreign “IT” companies do not innovate they just provide cheap labor.

          • Marty

            What is the name of the company and what salary are you offering?

          • annjohns

            Crickets.

          • Marty

            Someone said

          • Meteorlady

            Try and do that and see how far you get. Unless you have a representative such as Ted Cruz or other like him, you don’t get a response EVER. I was in Washignotn State and wrote Murray and Cantrell three times turning in companies that were paying less and got no response. If anything the amount of visa workers increased because the government did not enforce their own law.

          • hoapres

            Go to India

            Thank You

          • Scott Jenner

            BS dude I am American and cannot find an IT job with multiple degrees, certifications and so forth.

        • Meteorlady

          Who is actually checking that? I was in IT in the 90s and I wrote my congressional representatives (Patti Murray and Maria Cantrell) that there were visa workers being paid 50% less than American workers. Got no response. I wrote again when my friends started loosing their jobs and the visa workers kept theirs, and got no response. Try and get to the bottom of who is responsible for enforcing the law and you get nowhere.

        • The major outsourcers paid considerably less than the average, with Infosys and Cognizant paying $84,000, Wipro paying $74,000 and Tata paying $72,000.

      • Meteorlady

        OK lets take software and IT. You can go to a community college, take night classes and learn just about anything. I know I DID IT. Students today that borrow to go to high priced colleges are stupid and missing the boat if you want to get into IT fast. I even took Cisco Systems classes. I ended up contracting for various known companies and was paid 6 figures. All for a two year education that cost me by the class.

        We have children the can hack programs, write games, write programs and yet the public schools don’t encourage them with classes. Why? Union teachers that are under qualified for the jobs.

      • Mark

        Huh? US schools are chock full of technology majors. They hit a brick wall when they try to enter the job market, only to have their applications thrown out without response by the tech employers. 2/3rds of US citizen STEM-qualified workers do not work in STEM because of the lack of jobs available.

    • ken

      Because US Tech companies can’t find skilled US Citizens to fill those jobs fast enough to meet the business need. I experience and see it first hand. On average it takes my company at least 5 to 6 months to recruit an US Citizen programmer and sometime even longer even the offered salary is 30 – 40% higher than foreign programmer. When you have a big project and need 50 to 100 programmers, you can’t really wait year to fill those slots. In addition, vast majority of foreign workers are hired for temporary/short term project positions. It is extremely hard to find US skilled workers for a 6 months to a year project or temporary positions.

      • Geno

        Total BS
        Too many of these skilled laborers cannot actually do the job or need to be micro-managed for weeks. They learn on the job.

        I have seen it happen on multiple occasions.

      • TrumpGod12

        Bs…this is a giant scam. Lot of these projects can be done by fraction of talented American workers. The IT departments ends up bloating the project and brings in hundreds of programmers to justify their existence. Unfortunately some of the culprits instigating this scam are Americans themselves

      • george

        wow! they (Cognizant, TCS, Wipro, etc) are only service providers. who wrote all the programming languages back in 80’s & 90s (Microsoft, IBM, HP, Oracle etc)?

      • annjohns

        Sounds like a process problem that surely can be figured out without going outside the country. Set up companies that recruit Americans for these high skilled, high paying ‘temporary’ 6 month positions. Sounds like a job many would be interested in pursuing.

      • Meteorlady

        IT companies would do better to streamline their operations and use common sense in developing software. I was a Project Manager for years and found that you cannot get management to understand the software lifecycle. They give you unrealistic schedules even when you tell them they are just that; they demand to change the software as it’s being developed adding to the cost and time; and they are unable to comprehend testing software thoroughly before letting it go live.

      • hoapres

        Sounds like you need to ship your company overseas.

      • Mark

        So you’re admitting that the foreigners are being allowed to undercut US citizen wages. Also, many of the reputable companies receive 500 applicants per position, throwing most of them out. If you’re a small company, you may need to pay more than the ‘big’ companies.

  • saimin

    There is a huge difference between the H1B employees who work directly for the major tech companies and the H1B contractors who work for independent job shops. The skill of the worker is a lot different and the salaries (what the worker takes home) are a lot different. The main purpose of these job shops is to import workers who will work for lower salaries than US citizens with the same skill level.

    • Marty

      Exactly

  • Geno

    All H-1B visa holders should be sent packing.
    Start employing US Citizens and train as needed.

    If and only if the need cannot be met by employing and training, then allow H-1B visa holders back under the strictest of terms.

    • TrumpGod12

      Agreed. Deport all the H1B asap. There is plenty of American workers to take their jobs. We still have green card holders but nothing we can do about it, they have same rights as citizen

      • Anonymous

        Did you deported illegals selling drugs here? No right. You have problem with tax paying people and not illegals, criminals, far away relatives getting green card who have never seen usa!

    • Meteorlady

      I agree – we have to train the visa workers anyway – oh wait, they are paid less so that’s a plus for Apple and the rest.

  • Evolved

    I know this all too well. I worked for a small software company here in California. The owner slowly let go of American developers and brought in Indian developers overtime. Now, they have almost 80 percent developers from India. The H-1B is a disaster for American workers.

  • jackcandobutwont

    POTUS Trump needs to deport all illegals, all H1 and H2 visas, all expired visas, and then round up and kill all ms 13 gang members!

    • Bill Markus

      ..and then we all can sit and pipe that legal marijuana and stay happy for ever. Except for when you go to collect the unemployment benefits that these legal immigrants contribute to have long gone dry.

  • TrumpGod12

    H1B is a disaster. They bring in uncouth folks from India at lower wages. However in terms of productivity and skills, they are 1/10 of an American worker. I actually pressure tested couple of these guys in my company. It took them 3 weeks to do a project which took me one day. The whole thing is a giant scam

    • J. Coley

      Guess how long American workers would take to do the project? Never, because there aren’t any American workers who can do most, if not all, of those jobs.

      • Marty

        You have no idea what you are talking about. In many cases US workers have had to train their H1B replacements. Go home

        • Bill Markus

          At least they have a place to go “back” home. How about you? where will you go when all companies move overseas? Stop ranting “Go Home”. Does not make sense and it’s very racist to say that.

          • Mack

            Ah yes, the race card.
            Yes, they can go home now. We don’t need them. They are taking jobs that should be going to American citizens/ green card holders.
            The H1-B is a TEMPORARY Work Visa.

      • Alex

        You just disappeared up your own rear end.

        Most university graduates here, in Europe or otherwise do not possess the requisite skills. It simply is not part of the curriculum. There are individual exceptions who took it on their own to build those skills while in school, but otherwise it doesn’t happen.

        If you think Indian universities are somehow the exception, turning out capable individuals with the proper skill sets and ability to execute them then you are out of your mind.

      • Meteorlady

        There are plenty of workers who could do the job. I worked in IT and took workers who had not experience and sent them to local colleges for night classes. They worked perfectly and I was most happy with the results. No one is stupid, they jut haven’t had the opportunities some have had. So Americans can do those jobs, they just need a better education system that is not run by unions and the govenrment.

    • Meteorlady

      That was so my experience. They are here riding the gravy train and getting paid to do so while their children get a good education for nothing.

  • george

    A lot of state govt. IT jobs are also outsourced and they mostly employ H1-Bs. Even some federal govt. jobs goes the same way!

  • george

    We should only blame all these greedy profit oriented US companies!

    • Meteorlady

      OMG grow up. Greedy profit oriented US companies provide jobs with growth. What would you have them do? Shut down? Maybe give all their profits to the government or perhaps you entitled people who can’t seem to understand the validity of making money?

      • self

        4 companies in Silicon Valley have 400B offshore – why don’t they pay taxes so california can go back to being top 10 states in education instead of bottom 10

  • LC Mitra

    I work as an IT manager in San Francisco bay area. I have recruited a number of programmers in last 10-15 years in our projects. Whenever we put job ad in Dice or Indeed job sites, 80-90% of the respondents are from either Indian or Chinese origin, and many are with H1B visa. There has been situations where we had no other option. The billing rate we offered is regular market rate ($80-100/hr for related skills). And, we were not looking for any extraordinary skill, someone who can program in our system in Java or C++ or similar technologies.

    If you do not get the right resource, you cannot complete the project in time and then your job as a manager is in trouble. In software development, the main resource is “people”. I have convinced my management and hired young people whom we thought of training in-house rather than hiring little experienced foreigners and recruited two programmers like this.

    I understand some companies do this just to save money. But, at the same time it is also true that it is difficult to find people with related skill in some fields.

    • Rags

      You cannot get people other than Indians or Chinese? What a crock of lie! These H1B visa holders are way below average.

      • John

        II’ve recruited for my company and visited several engineering powerhouse schools and I struggled to meet American students at the job fairs. I even had running bets with my co-workers on who could interview the most American students.

        • J. Coley

          You don’t say?!

          • Anonymous

            You are hypocrites. Average American income is $50k. H1B are getting $139k, that’s nearly triple to USA’s income. Ban outsourcing but telling $139k is nothing is foolish. Comparing everything with California is foolish, where is it written all H1B holders are in California. H1B are issued throughout USA. Earning a 6 digit salary in states like Texas, Virginia, Ohio, SC, NC is not a joke and is higher side. Plus, when they mean a Master’s, these big corporations generally choose USA Master’s degree not Indian. It would be funny if you feel your own country’s master’s is worthless. Demanding $250k is so funny, even Americans don’t earn that much in rest of USA except maybe California or New York, and as I said H1B is USA visa not California state visa. AND most important, you don’t have problem with diversity lottery gc which is stupidest thing you have, giving green card to any far far relatives, in short giving green card to anyone but not Master’s and Ph.D of your own country’s education system! Do you even know Indians have 42 years wait time for green card but you will give it to anyone in a diversity lottery for nothing, who has not seen USA also but you have problem with people staying here legally, paying tax and has a degree from your country with your country’s education system. If you don’t want people, stop issuing students visa. But you will never do that because you want money from Indian and Chinese, charging out of state tuition but then remove them after taking their money. Ban student’s visa no one is stopping you than always harassing H1B people. If 1.4 million H1B people leave tommorow, US don’t have STEM workforce to fill out tommorow and if F1 students stop coming, $40 billion dollar universities graduate school business will be lost so don’t act so xenophobic and be practical. Outsourcing is bad so stop TCS Infosys Wipro Cognizant but don’t speak rubbish like $139k is nothing and Google and Apple takes anyone. If you think so, I am sure you never even got called for a Google or Apple interview!

        • disqus_3C3PY37JDn

          Why should Americans get trained for jobs that are undercut by cheap foreign labor?

        • Marty

          Company name and salary?

          • John

            Chip design company looking for Electrical or Computer Enginers.
            Starting salary for new grad w/ MSEE w/ specialty in VLSI is ~$85k/year REGARDLESS of citizenship status.

            The ratio we observed at the job fair was in the ~30:1 range.

          • hoapres

            Not prepared to pay enough to hire an American then don’t do the job in America.

            Your company can’t afford American labor then go overseas.

            Problem solved.

          • Mark

            $85k/year isn’t high enough in the Silicon Valley , and why not look at BSEE’s as well? MSEE doesn’t mean anything other than spending time with a professor doing research and maybe re-doing a few BSEE classes. Some uni’s have even dropped the research/thesis requirement.

          • hoapres

            Bingo

            This company just needs to MOVE.

            Problem solved.

        • hoapres

          You are too cheap.

          Start offering a starting salary of $250K+ a year with a $50K signing bonus and you will get anyone you want.

        • Mark

          Okay so why don’t you use every forum you have available to you to advertise your jobs. Heck, post the phone number and contact name of someone I can talk to at your company, and I might even call.

          • John

            I’m not HR… I’m an engineer who accompanies the recruiters from time to time. I’m just telling you what I observed on those trips.

          • Mark

            I’ve gone to the schools as well. Most of the engineering students are white males. When they graduate with their BSEE’s, they hit a brick wall trying to find quality employment.

          • hoapres

            They are diversity ineligible for employment in an h1b infested company.

          • hoapres

            Ok

            And this isn’t directed to you personally but to your company.

            Why not just post the name of your employer out here along with the salaries/benefits that are offered.

            The cynic in me says that the company is looking for a nonexistent purple squirrel when ordinary squirrels exist in abundance that can do the job.

          • hoapres

            The one that cracked me up was the manufacturing company in Ohio that complained they couldn’t find workers for high paying jobs because of the drug epidemic.

            Turns out that the company didn’t advertise for these high paying jobs and when I called up the company in Ohio found out that the jobs pay $10 an hour.

      • J. Coley

        Can you prove otherwise? This is the reality, not Trump fiction. Check out the math scores of American high school students these days. You really think programming Java is in the cards if your major is Home Ec? That’s not gonna cut it.

        The ‘S’ in STEM is already under fire from conservatives, and you think American workers can compete with citizens from countries in which they actually believe in science?

        This is a kneejerk reaction from a president who’s pandering to his xenophobic base, who all aspire to be Walmart door greeters.

      • LC Mitra

        That is what one of my colleagues thought once and accused me of hiring Asians only. So, I showed her one day the current job positions I had (contract and full-time) and the applicants, she was shocked to see that almost 80-90% of the applicants sounded like Asian names. She apologized to me.

    • Freddie Drumpf

      Sounds like your shop is more programming, I agree, our American education system has not kept up with the demand for these skills. However, for other more “IT-centric” shops, the system is abused heavily. Sys admin, DBA’s, tech support, middleware install / support; I always thought we can train ghetto blacks or Kentucky rednecks to do these jobs; somebody needs to try it.

      • hoapres

        We don’t have a shortage of people with skills. If we did then wages would be going up.

        • Kungaloosh

          Welcome back, my friend.

          Even flyover is complaining about a skills shortage:

          http://www.startlandnews.com/2017/05/report-kc-tech-hub-labor-shortage-hampering-growth

          If you look at this article in detail, you’ll find the usual suspects claiming “shortage.”

          • hoapres

            I am not going to be here long as I am pretty sure that SJMN is going to ban me here as well.

        • LC Mitra

          Actually, wages did go up a lot in some software development area. In some technologies like high end big-data programming or cloud-integration programming in Salesforce like SaaS platform the billing rate goes $125+/hr or $140-$180 for FTEs.
          Part of that is due to the supply-demand gap.

          • hoapres

            The wage need to get high enough to find qualified Americans to do the work or it doesn’t get done.

    • hoapres

      Wages need to go up then.

      Problem solved.

    • hoapres

      If you are using Dice then well that says it all and you don’t know what you are doing for tech recruiting.

      • LC Mitra

        I work in a large company with thousands of people. I do not decide where the job ads should go. Our HR recruitment department has corporate subscription for job posting with several agencies and Dice.com, Indeed.com … are in the list for tech jobs.

    • Mark

      Then you need to offer an above-market rate. You can’t expect to recruit above-average people with average pay. Also, most talented people don’t like to work “by the hour”. Its rather insulting actually to try and measure contributions “by the hour”.

      • hoapres

        Like I said before, IT/software engineering is just too expensive to do it in the US and should just go overseas.

        That solves a lot of problems.

      • LC Mitra

        When I quoted hourly rate that is of course for temporary contractors, but the situation is similar for FTE positions. My friend works in IT of a major health network. And, he said it is ridiculous – you have to pay more to a server security engineer than a doctor.

        • Mark

          Doubtful.

        • Mark

          Server Security people are a dime a dozen. And good ones don’t work “by the hour” anyways.

    • hoapres

      Don’t like the American workforce then get out of America.

  • charlie hustle

    It’s not just the pay, it’s the control they have over them.

  • Marty

    Those are the direct H1B workers. What about the H1Bs that are working for 3rd parties agencies at Apple?

    • Meteorlady

      I’m not as hot about Apple as I used to be. They used to put out perfect software and products. I recently purchased a new iMAC the was loaded ($3,200). I loaded all my software on it, backed it up and was using it for exactly two weeks and the entire unit quit working. Apple could not save my hard drive and so they gave me a new iMAC that still does crazy things now and them.

      But the worst of the worst is that I lost my Adobe Master Collection because I only has a license for two installs and the broken iMAC was the second install. Neither ADOBE or APPLE would take any action to fix my problem and I am left with no software and had to replace it with other applications.

      • Candid One

        Apple Care.

    • Moderate

      They have contracts with Infosys.

  • Smedley

    It’s also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why should Americans go into IT when their jobs are just going to be outsourced? I’ve been it IT for over 25 years and watched it happen over and over.

    • Meteorlady

      Because it’s estimated that 433,000 jobs in that industry will be created in the next 10 to 20 years.

      • hoapres

        That estimate has been discredited. Most IT jobs don’t pay that well.

      • hoapres

        That isn’t true but it sounds good.

      • Smedley

        Fair enough. Just be sure that you’re willing to work for the same wages and benefits as the H1B people at the consulting companies and their equivalents abroad.

  • annjohns

    Ever notice when the immigration advocates are shown to have been, let’s just say, liars, articles are all business straight reporting as opposed to the hundreds of narratives written and published including in this newspaper that personalized, emotionalized, and dramatized in defense of never restricting immigration in any way, shape, or form?

  • Meteorlady

    So in the late 1990’s during the Tech boom, the companies petitioned the government for visa workers. These people showed up where I was contracting and they were from all over the world, but mostly India. Most India workers did not know how to do the jobs they applied to comer to the US for. They were represented by headhunting firms who didn’t care one way or the other because the corporations paid them.

    American workers like myself were paid well, but when the visa workers started showing up we decided to check and see how that program worked. Seems they were supposed to get the same pay as American for doing the same job. Meanwhile they didn’t know how to do the job so we had to take time to train them. Then we found out that they were making less than the rest of us – in some cases 50% less.

    When the boom because a bust the American workers were laid off and collecting unemployment while the foreign workers held their jobs. Nice for the corporations, bad for the taxpayers and American workers.

    In the next 10 years computing related jobs will double and if students are smart they will get into the tech field instead of “business management”, “liberal arts” and all the rest of the walk through classes taught at major colleges.

    But simply today there are thousands of graduates that are working lesser paying jobs and jobs that are nothing to do with their degrees. Maybe the companies would be well put to train these people into their organizations instead of hiring foreign workers?

    • Candid One

      Silicon Valley has been lobbying for tech H-1B quota enhancements since before the Seventies. Every previous White House Administration has had hosted representatives intermittently frequenting SV since the LBJ era. Of course, SV is also a common stop for campaign fund raising by both parties.

      • gippatel

        What you have to realize is that the “silicon valley” of today is not in any way related to the silicon valley of the 1970s. Back then, hardware was king (and why the name silicon valley made sense; now, not so much), and the jobs were chemistry/electronics/physics based. Now, it’s mostly software, IT and bio-science.

        It’s just a guess, but the relative numbers of people with applicable background in software/IT/bio is quite higher than the number of chem/EE types years ago…

  • hoapres

    As others point out, not everybody working at Apple is an Apple employee.

    • Candid One

      Actually, Apple doesn’t use intermediaries. Their H-1B hires are Apple employees. But many Silicon Valley companies contract custodial services.

      • hoapres

        Uh No.

      • Marty

        Wrong

      • Mark

        Yeah there’s lots of third party contractors at Apple to run, amongst other things, Apple’s IT department. Amazing, isn’t it, that one of the largest computer companies in the world has actually outsourced its IT!

  • hoapres

    The only proper comparison which can’t be done is to :

    Compare

    1. The US economy which we have since the h1b program started.

    VS.

    2. A US economy evolving without an H1B program.

    That’s the only proper comparison.

    IT is just labor flipping like flipping a burger. When the American automobile industry got decimated by low cost imports due to UAW labor being too expensive, then the jobs simply went to at the time mostly Japan.

    There was never any talk about bringing in Japanese to keep US labor costs down.

    • Candid One

      The Japanese have a labor shortage themselves. Low birthrates have plagued Japan in recent generations.

      • hoapres

        But not in the 1970s which was the time frame that the Japanese leveled the American auto industry.

      • Mark

        The Japanese actually are doing something about their labour shortage — using robots and vending machines. America could be developing a lot of technology to solve any labour shortage, but instead just insists on glutting up the market.

        • hoapres

          Nothing would please me more than automating software engineers out of business.

          The computers can just program themselves.

  • hoapres

    Just another point.

    San Jose Mercury News banned me from posting.

    Now those who followed me on the old Dice discussion boards can figure out the reason for that.

    • self

      you are the Champ – undisputed, undefeated.

      Please don’t stop telling the truth EVER

  • Scowler

    There are several proposals in Congress to raise the base minimum salary for H1-B to at least $100,000. Some proposals as high as $120,000.

    I’m not sure why those proposals haven’t been passed into law yet.

    • hoapres

      Won’t help.

      Really, it won’t.

      Use an OPT or B1 visa.

      • Scowler

        It will help some.

        • hoapres

          Not really.

          Get an OPT then I don’t even have to pay you at all if you do the paperwork right.

          • Scowler

            Some might work around the law as you suggest.

            Some won’t.

          • hoapres

            Most will.

            FWIW, I don’t mess with this stuff. I got the best immigration attorney in SV on speed dial. I can get a foreigner LEGALLY to work for minimum wage.

          • Scowler

            I doubt that. If so, they’d skip H1-B to begin with.

          • hoapres

            They are.

            I don’t mess with using h1bs for the companies that I work with.

            OPT is the way to go.

            Not always, but it is real attractive.

    • Candid One

      In Silicon Valley, $100K is barely above local poverty levels.

      • Scowler

        The mean household income is around $110,000 county wide, if I recall correctly. So either threshold is in the vicinity of that.

        • hoapres

          If you make less than $100K a year then you are considered low income in Palo Alto with regards to housing.

        • Candid One

          In 2014, SF announced its local poverty level for a family of four at $95K. That same year, SJ announced its counterpart at $85K. Both of those levels are higher now. Last year, SJ had a ruckus, noted in the Merc, about a young, single engineer making $121K, who couldn’t afford to buy a house in SJ. BTW, the county includes Gilroy and such hinterlands that are cheaper.

          • Scowler

            Yes, local housing costs are insane.

            Note that H1-B floor is nation-wide. The feds cannot get too fixated on Silicon Valley’s local issues when setting national rules.

          • hoapres

            Well. There really isn’t an h1b floor.

          • Scowler

            I think it’s currently $60k.

          • hoapres

            Nope

            Talk to an immigration attorney that specializes in h1b visa matters.

          • hoapres

            The reason housing costs are insane is that tech companies have an almost unlimited supply of cheap labor.

            If you didn’t have h1bs and other such visas then companies would have to move.

            So simple is it.

  • hoapres

    1917: I want you to join the US Army

    2017: I want you to train your Indian h1b replacement

  • hoapres

    American workers working PROUDLY TOGETHER training their Indian h1b replacements to export their jobs to improve corporate profits

    • Smedley

      What sort of Mickey Mouse statement is that?

      • self

        Truth brother, listen and learn. The professor is speaking

        • meowmeow

          I heard engineers discussing this very thing. This training of their replacements happen. The ones who were training their new h1 replacement were not happy.

      • hoapres

        That mickey mouse statement was given back to BofA employees in Concord, CA who had to train their Indian h1b replacements. That spiel was given by Tata Consulting Services.

  • hoapres

    The faster we can dump tech to India then the better off America will be.

    • Candid One

      India’s complaining about its brain drain losses to the US. The majority of H-1B visas are going to natives of India.

      • hoapres

        Like I said before. If we can dump all of tech to India then the better off America will be.

        SV looks more like the 3rd world.

        You don’t get to trash America to make a buck.

        • Candid One

          The richest immigrants in SV are from India. CA has been a nonmajority state for decades. The Census categories haven’t been tracking race and ethnicity until the Nineties and that’s still inaccurate. FYI, recent studies show that ~80% of Puerto Rico’s residents (de facto US-born) list themselves as “white”. California has that same syndrome. Census data is not acccurate. In 2014, US-born latino Americans were recognized as CA’s largest demographic…about 40 years late. Until the Nineties, the Census didn’t offer enough categories but most older generations kept checking “white”, which many are anyway. Intermarriage has been common in CA since before statehood.

          • hoapres

            Sorry

            SV is getting trashed.

            To be fair, it depends on what you mean by getting trashed.

            My definition of trashed is seeing 5+ story future slums being built instead of single family homes.

            America is about OWNING PROPERTY not living in apartment buildings which will be slums in 20 years.

  • hoapres

    Sounds like American labor is too expensive.

    Let’s just ship it all overseas and American can do something else.

    Problem solved.

    • Marty

      Sounds like corporations need slaves

    • Candid One

      Nope. Until very recently, US domestic STEM-educated talent has been lagging most industrialized nations. Since the Nineties, US females were attending college at a greater rate than US males. Males have dominated STEM majors in US colleges and universities; their enrollment fall-off meant a slump in later options for US employers. Meanwhile, many large tech businesses have been funding and cultivating advanced research programs at a elite US grad schools. Many products of such programs are foreign born–including Europe. For decades, tech companies have coveted a higher return on their investments; they were losing US-trained foreign-born talent to visa barriers. That’s still their quandary.

      • hoapres

        Like I said above, sounds like tech is too expensive to do in the US.

        So ship it overseas.

        What’s the problem ??

        I don’t see one.

        • Candid One

          Domestic tech talent will catch up in the next generation…as foreign-born workers have US-born kids. 🙂

          This has been happening in SV.

          • hoapres

            Don’t bet on it. I won’t be around when this all blows up.

    • pgm554

      We’re pretty good at war.
      We are more efficient at killing than any other country out there.
      Let the anarchists start a civil war and let God sort things out.

      • hoapres

        Be careful of what you wish for.

        • Michael Van Nuland

          NO. That’s what wishes are for.

  • hoapres

    You make more as a bus driver than you do as a software engineer.

    So why bother becoming a software engineer in the first place.

    • KimJongicrat

      You mean a BART janitor…. (320k enumerated to include overtime/Bennie’s)

    • Mark

      Yup, average San Jose Cop = $160k. Doesn’t have to pay for their training either, and has iron-clad job security (none of this look at Steve Jobs the wrong way and he fires you on the spot business!).

      • Andrew N

        We need H1 B for Cops and Bart Janitors (300K per year)

  • Buffarms

    Limit H1B to Master’s Degree Holders with pay over $120,000. If Tech companies need more bachelor’s level employees, they can provide scholarships and dedicated online programs to get them. I bet Google could come up with a 2 year program online that can get someone ready to work an intro engineer position.

    • hoapres

      Even better is to ship Google to India.

      • Simon Miller

        That is the best idea yet. And take F*ckbook and Apple with them.

        • hoapres

          Won’t happen but I really like the idea.

    • Minority

      Min should be 250k and a PhD as 120K is barely middle class in the Bay Area. The H1B is supposed to be for the highest skilled workers possible, not an everyday worker bee

      • gippatel

        Average salaries, even here, are nowhere near the $250k mark… closer to $125k-150k.

        • hoapres

          BINGO

          That’s the point.

          h1bs are supposed to be for the best and the brightest being far superior to the average and should be paid accordingly.

    • Mark

      Why damage the career prospects of US Citizen Masters or PhD degree recipients?

  • hoapres

    It’s time for California to secede from the United States.

    • Candid One

      Not likely to happen. Most polls show a better than 2:1 negative reaction among likely voters. It would take a complete reversal of that ratio to have any viability. Besides, most folks have much more to lose than to gain with such a notion.

      • hoapres

        Don’t bet on it. You are probably right for the near term but California and the rest of the United States are on a collision course.

        With immigration and gun rights being on the immediate agenda.

        Don’t be surprised that within the next 2 years that you will be able to (finally!) get your gun rights back and buy the gun of your choice instead of what the state of California says you can buy along with nationwide conceal carry.

        • Karma

          Not likely, specially when Newscum becomes the next commifornia governor.

          • hoapres

            Bet on it.

            Not going to happen overnight but if Trump and the NRA get your American gun rights back along with immigration laws enforced by defunding California cities then the crud starts to hit the fan.

          • hoapres

            I hope Zuckerberg runs for President. The NRA is going to have a field day and the electoral college results are going to be a rude awakening for the CEO of Farcebook.

          • hoapres

            Likely

            All the Feds have to do is pass a law prohibiting states from writing gun laws.

            Which is the way it should be in the first place.

  • hoapres

    Thank God for the 2nd Amendment.

    Just as a historical note, the ONLY reason you ever had immigration control in the first place starting in 1921 was that the RICH in this country seeing communism sweeping throughout Russia were afraid that it was going to happen in America.

    Just thought you should know that.

  • hoapres

    If we get rid of h1bs then either wages go up or companies move.

    HEY

    This is a WIN-WIN

    Let’s go for it.

  • hoapres

    Let’s see.

    Let’s assume that the h1bs are the best and brightest. Start paying accordingly. An hb should be making $250K+ a year.

    Then you can start convincing me that it is about brains instead of labor costs.

    • Scowler

      Weren’t you just saying that increasing the floor wouldn’t help?

      And why are you spamming this forum in the first place?

      • hoapres

        No one is proposing to go up to $250K a year.

        Heck if you don’t like what I post then don’t respond to it in the first place.

  • SofaKingMoney

    Trust me when I say this: if someone from India has a “master’s degree” from one of their tech diploma mills…this does not indicate that they are “highly skilled”, any more than a US worker with equivalent or even less of a degree (BS). Trust me when I say this…

    • Scowler

      You know, there is still a job interview process. For somebody fresh out of school, they generally have to show some problem solving skills in the interviews.

      • hoapres

        No they don’t.

        Or better put not always.

        It would be a good idea, though.

        • Scowler

          Almost all employers who are trying to compete in this valley would do technical interviews for New College Grads. The exception might be for PhD where the employer is familiar with the presented thesis. Anything short of that is stupid and makes me guess the company won’t exist long.

        • Scowler

          Almost all employers who are trying to compete in this valley would do technical interviews for New College Grads. The exception might be for PhD where the employer is familiar with the presented thesis. Anything short of that is stupid and makes me guess the company won’t exist long.

          • hoapres

            Like I said not always and particularly on projects involving h1bs.

            Really they don’t.

            To be fair, usually would be accurate but not always.

            I have seen h1bs hired off the street for projects that were intended to fail more than once.

          • Mark

            Completely inappropriate to do a technical interview on a new grad. The college degree is a 4-year-long technical interview carried out by numerously highly qualified people.

      • Andrew N

        If the guy is willing to work for 1/2, he’s qualified. I’m speaking from experience.

      • Mark

        A CS degree is prima facie proof of being able to use problem solving skills. Technical interviews are unnecessary in most cases.

      • SofaKingMoney

        Yeah…I know. I have interviewed hundreds of people for a Fortune 100 tech company, including college grads and contractors from India, from nearly ALL of the outsourcing companies like Tata, InfoSys, Accenture, etc…once you start poking on the resumes, you can generally expose anyone if they don’t truly possess the skills they claim.

  • hoapres

    Now you guys know why I was banned on SJMN along with Dice before they shut down their boards.

    I tell it like it is.

    • self

      100!

      • hoapres

        I am still trying to figure out why I am banned on the SJMN news website but not their tech blogs.

        Although, I am pretty sure that I am going to get banned here as well.

  • Mark

    $139k isn’t much for allegedly “best and brightest” talent. Especially in a community where decent homes cost a million.

    • firmwareguy

      That is the median salary. I have friends who are principal engineers ( on H1B visa , directly hired) who make upwards of $180k base and then RSU + bonus. You do know that a 3rd of this visa is given to students who graduated from universities here,right?

      • Mark

        If that’s median, then there must be a heck of a lot that are quite beneath that. Which is pathetic. And what about the students of those universities who weren’t able to get jobs? The H-1B visa has allowed firms to basically toss them in the garbage. It needs to be abolished ASAP.

      • Mark

        Also, considering that Apple receives applications from probably literally every CS graduate in the United States, there’s no excuse for them to be employing *any* H-1Bs. If they need a few O-1’s, fine, but any use of H-1B by Apple is abuse. Same deal at Google and Amazon, companies which receive a significant multiple of applications to actual domestic hiring needs.

  • hoapres

    Since I am pretty sure that at some point I am going to get banned and to be fair to the SJMN since I can only speculate on the cause of the ban, here is my best guess:

    I have a nasty habit of telling it like it is.

    So here it is.

    We are doing racial cleansing in Silicon Valley. Good, Bad or neutral isn’t relevant to the discussion. Sure, I am going to get labeled a racist by some liberals (quite likely including the SJMN moderating staff)

    BUT

    That’s the way it is.

    You have Indian software engineers and Chinese investors coming in like a swarm of locuses with the Indians living in 5+ story apartment buildings and the Chinese buying up the properties.

    That’s the way it is folks.

    • Rob

      I have become a racist by living in Silicon Valley. I admit it. But I had some help. Our so-called leaders are partly responsible.

  • hoapres

    This is what happens when you almost double the national debt. The Chinese come back and buy up the properties resulting in increased housing costs. Then the tech companies flood SV with h1bs willing to live 12+ to an apartment.

  • Tamilmagan

    hoapres : I am from India and I work for an American company but does business internationally .

    I have been in the US since 2010 brought into this system by one of body shopping companies which you constantly bash. Ignoring the fact that whether I love India or not , I just want to give my opinion.

    I am not in favor of H1B scams but rather i would like to be reformed with strict regulations.

    Every system out there is not perfect. People find loopholes in every system.

    The rich and poor doesn’t care about these issue because they are mostly impervious to these social issues. Its just the vast middle class who depends on daily or weekly or monthly wages for their living get caught in this tide.

    This issue is not only happening to you but to almost everyone in the world right now. In India, the major companies which rake in huge profits belongs to foreign nations.
    Big corporates keep sucking all the natural resources illegally .
    To name a few American companies – American Express,Coca Cola,Colgate Palmolive,Federal Express,Ford,GE,Intel ,Johnson & Johnson,Kimberly Clark, McDonalds, Pepsico, Whirlpool ,etc.
    Does it mean India doesn’t have local companies to cater to the people. NO.

    This is called Globalization. Everyone are under constant threat whether they realize it or not .
    If you are an employer , you want to reduce loss and cut down cost . If you are an employee, you strive to increase your salary. If companies are pushed to increase their year-over-year margins , they will keep looking for options to reduce cost.

    Where do you think the laptop or mobile phone you are reading this comment comes from ? And when you are out shopping , if you look for the price label before grabbing it then you can’t blame this system. Because you drive this market.

    Majorly, there are only 2 kinds of people who buy products , one looks for quality and the other looks for cheapest one. Why do people buy from Amazon or Walmart ? Bcoz they want to save money and partially due to convenience as well .

    A while back , a frnd of mine was replaced by someone from another country.
    He asked me , If someone can replace you for less , then what kind of value were you adding to the company ? And do you really want to work for a company which considers you as just a 100k or 200k sinkhole ?

    Now , you have a target to blame -H1B . What will you do in the future , when your job is replaced by a few lines of code ? Block the internet !! Trash all the computers ?!

    • Dave

      Idk. If we ignore your sarcasm and emotional outburts it sounds to be like you want to abolish the program as well. Welcome to the club brother!

    • hoapres

      If your job can’t be done cost effective in America then just don’t do it in the US.

    • Rob

      Why don’t you just go back to India? Unless of course it is a hellhole that no-one would want to live in. Who made it that way? Not me. You did. Please do not come here and turn this place into another India.

      This country should be more than a repository for the excess population of places like China and India — environmental and population disasters.

      • Archangel of High Heavens

        I being Indian; I must agree to your point here “Please do not come here and turn this place into another India.” and of course +1 hit for your statement.
        I can tell you how much disaster Indians create at work.
        My statements were deleted when I posted so I think these people will delete my statement too. So I am not going in detail.
        But I must say that because of Indians I was kicked out of the country.
        God Bless you.

  • kevinish

    The body shops have been with us forever. There are a lot of talented people who are here under the H1-B program; there are a lot who frankly are brought in by execs looking for a cheap temporary boost to net income and are average at best. As i have said before, the H1B program needs an overhaul, changing it to a path to citizenship for top notch talent, not a generic stopgap for opportunistic, weaselly execs. We’ve seen companies go the body shop route, building a castle on speghetti code (“i’m the only one who can make sense of it=job security”) then go through desperate reorgs laying off thousands of contractors/workers. A refinement of the program would save some companies from themselves.

  • Fake news Trumped real news

    Eliminate the outsourcing.

  • Cherry Coke

    Don’t employers have to pay to sponsor the visas? They shouldn’t make as much as citizens.

  • LC Mitra

    I see some people are in favor of removing all H1B visa holders. Let us hypothetically assume that it is done. The question is who will do these jobs – who will write code in Java, C#, node.js, Hadoop, Big Data, Salesforce, cloud computing …. all that – who will do that? What will happen next is again you have to start hiring foreigners. Unless and until, you have a local skill pool – this will continue to happen.

    • Andrew N

      Can you write all the code you mention above? or just Java?

      • LC Mitra

        I don’t understand your question. The point I made is that the jobs the H1B visa holders do, someone has to do that. There are not enough local people available to these jobs.

        • Andrew N

          Trust me, Americans can code pretty well and we have plenty Americans who were out of jobs and being replaced by H1Bs.

          • LC Mitra

            Why don’t they apply for these jobs?

          • Mack

            Where was the code developed? Which country?

          • gaurav

            Andrew/Mack.. you guys really don’t understand IT; Have you guys ever heard about HIPPA/FETCHA…I’m sure not. This is problem, Dumb Americans don’t get jobs but average/smart Americans are still on top positions.

          • Mack

            English your second language? Good luck at the call center.

          • Mark

            Acutally its dumb Americans who can get jobs in IT, because they’re willing to work for cheap. Its the mid to top-tier talent that can’t find jobs because they get lost in the mountains of applicants that a typical job at a reputable/interesting employer receives. Their lives literally ruined by the glut of foreign IT talent brought in.

          • Andrew N

            I worked in IT when you were not even born yet.

          • Andrew N

            They were being displaced by H-1Bs who are willing to work for 1/2 salary. They actually tried to apply jobs but can’t compete with low salary. Read the news and help stop the H1Bs abuse.

          • Archangel of High Heavens

            Yeah, Right! Cannot argue on that. Everyone need jobs irrespective of nationality, religion, race, gender, etc.,
            My question is after all this. How is the economy doing?
            I see that Euro is doing better. May be it’s better that highly skilled and talented candidates can move to Europe and make fortune there.
            And please don’t blame anyone if America becomes economically backward country. After all it’s about the choice we make in our life.
            Source: http://www.xe.com/

          • Andrew N

            When you said Euro is doing better I think you are out of your mind. Britain , France, Germany and the whole Europe are busy fighting terrorists in their own backyard.

          • Archangel of High Heavens

            Sure. Why don’t you check yourself that link I provided ? lol
            Fighting those terrorist is an ongoing process, that is not something new that suddenly appeared from nowhere to now here.
            Do you even know what was the value versus other countries of dollar before 2017 ?
            How do you know that I am out of my mind ? Are you a clairvoyant ? You look like typical Indian guy who just want to take interest in blame game business because lack of knowledge.
            Keep living your life in delusions. Not your fault. Defective pieces of nature.

          • Bike Helmet Ride

            H-1B is economic terrorism on Americans.

        • JGG

          After 20 years of being undercut and forced out by imported labor, you can imagine that many people simply go elsewhere to make a living. Point being, the H1B program has become a profit center, not a way to bring in needed talent.

        • hoapres

          Well

          Then the work doesn’t get done locally.

          What’s the problem ??

          I don’t see one.

          • tenminutetokyo .

            Funding enemies who want to attack you leads to war, that’s the problem.

        • Mark

          There are tons of local people to do the jobs. Locals often have to train their foreign replacements, and large numbers of CS grads can’t find jobs either. Not sure where you’re coming up with the nonsense that the locals can’t code.

        • tenminutetokyo .

          90 million Americans are out of work, many of whom helped create Silicon Valley long before loot and remit Indians arrived. Has there ever been even one single American tech company created by Indians?

          • IndiannotAmused

            Has there ever been a single American enterprise that did not involve non-Americans? Every single American success story has immigrant energy infused at some or the other level. Butt-hurt losers like you will ALWAYS lose to ANY immigrant…….a Pakistani troll like you will then become a suicide bomber……lol.

    • hoapres

      Nope

      Just send the job overseas.

      It’s not like software has to be done in the US. If I can get someone overseas to do it for $20K a year or even less then why would I want to do it in the US in the first place.

      • tenminutetokyo .

        Because the proj will fail overseas as the “loot and remit” Indians collect paychecks for a few years before the dumb American MBAs realize they have been scammed and can do nothing about it.

    • Rob

      Stay in India and write your code. There is no reason to come here (and of course bring your extended Sari-wearing family with you).

      • tenminutetokyo .

        From: Rajesh Kumar Ramachandran (Collabera)
        Subject: Listen to me A******!!
        Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT)

        “Now listen carefully to me a******.. don’t just bark around in the corner like a rabies stricken stray dog about your pathetic views about politics and jobs. If your insecure about your skills and abilities that’s your f****** problem not Indians or any other politicians.. Well you want me to provoke you well then hear this, we are gonna take all your jobs away.. we gonna make sure that you don’t even have money to buy s*** and eat, we gonna take evrything that was yours. we gonna drape the Statue of Liberty with a saree (you don’tdont know wahta saree iis, well its a dress which Indian womear).. now get your f****** stinking face out of here A******!!!!!”

    • Mark

      Americans will write the code, and actually might be able to find jobs after graduating from programs such as Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, etc.

      As it stands, the employers *ignore* applications from Americans and hire foreign. Yes, applications from qualified Americans are literally ignored.

    • tenminutetokyo .

      Americans will. Americans created Silicon Valley and all those programming languages and companies long before loot and remit Asians arrived. And guess what happened to the US econ when Americans were doing all those jobs? Surprise! It was BOOMING!

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_United_States_boom

    • tenminutetokyo .

      Please name even one single major programming language created by Indians or Chinese. Doesn’t exist.

      • LC Mitra

        True.
        In that logic, Alexander Fleming created penicillin, so all doctors should be British.

  • Perturbed Pundit

    This article reminds me of that famous movie, “The Wizard Of Oz”. The scene I’m thinking about is when the “wizard” exclaims, “Pay no attention to the man behind that curtain!!”. The Silicon Beat is attempting to divert attention away from the real issues of the H-1B visa.

    To help demonstrate my point, here’s a car analogy. The outsourcers (e.g., Infosys) buy Toyota Corolla cars, while the “maintream” companies (e.g., Google) buy Toyota Camry cars. Of course, the Toyota Corolla costs less than the Toyota Camry, but the important point is that the H-1B visa is allowing both the outsourcers AND the maintream companies to buy their cars at a 20% discount.

    The H-1B visa is being abused by all companies, because the law was written specifically to enable such abuse.

    • Archangel of High Heavens

      wow! People who written the law must be thinking “That’s not my problem!” typical Indian style of doing the work.

    • tenminutetokyo .

      In the 1980s when the US auto industry was being decimated by Japan, then-president Reagan told Japanese car makers: “If you want to sell your cars here, you have to build plants here and employ our people”. They did. To this day the Honda Civic is made in a plant in Marysville OH using American workers and Japanese managers.

      It’s time we told the fake Indian outsourcers operating on our shores the same.

      • AQua

        Japanese are the superior breed.

    • Mark

      If you want an analogy along those lines, usually when someone wants to buy a car, they’ll consider cars from a number of manufacturers, foreign and domestic.

      The presence of the H-1B visa and the rampant abuse of it is like the tech employers literally saying, “I’m not even going to bother to look at GM, Ford, Chrysler, Tesla’s offerings, I’m just going to buy a foreign brand”.

      Yes, its entirely possible that some domestic workers don’t measure up, but as it stands, the tech employers aren’t even considering the domestic workers. Literally throwing out most of the applications they receive.

    • Mark

      If you want an analogy along those lines, usually when someone wants to buy a car, they’ll consider cars from a number of manufacturers, foreign and domestic.

      The presence of the H-1B visa and the rampant abuse of it is like the tech employers literally saying, “I’m not even going to bother to look at GM, Ford, Chrysler, Tesla’s offerings, I’m just going to buy a foreign brand”.

      Yes, its entirely possible that some domestic workers don’t measure up, but as it stands, the tech employers aren’t even considering the domestic workers. Literally throwing out most of the applications they receive.

  • JGG

    Many of the College Technology Education programs in the U.S. have been decimated by the H1B program. Students have increasingly avoided them as a career path. Basically, our Government has been working against it’s citizens best interest for 20 Plus years in relation to Technology. But, the employers make great contributions to the politicians re-election campaigns, who in turn make “Great” legislation for the employers. Term-Limits – Flush our life-time politicians back into society and remove their ability to lobby for 5 years.

    • Dave

      Couldn’t have said it better. When we’ll need engineers after giving away all of our intellectual property via outsourced manufacturing (a.k.a. let our competitors have intimate look at our latest technology by building them for us) they won’t be there because of years of abuse. Who wants to go through the tough curriculum only to be stressed out, burned out, have no free time, ridiculed, no job stability, and underpaid? Only idiots which unfortunately for America engineers are not.

      • tenminutetokyo .

        And face the Indian Mafia at hiring time which only hires 100% Indians.

    • Scowler

      60k annual H1-B visas is not remotely enough to cause the imaginary effect you describe, in a nation of 300 million. It’d have to be tenfold higher to cause such an extreme effect.

      Try again.

      • hoapres

        Nope

        Got that wrong.

        It’s over 1 million h1bs in the last 17 years.

        • Scowler

          One million divided by 17 equals…

          Spammy poster apparently not a mathematics genius.

          • hoapres

            Got that wrong.

            Educational employers are exempt from the cap. 85K is the annual cap. In 1999 and 2000, the cap was 195K for each of the two years.

            YOU do the math.

          • Scowler

            In other words, you can’t remotely defend the initial post in this thread.

            Tenfold higher would be needed to satisfy that idiotic idea.

          • hoapres

            Try harder.

            Like I said before it is over 1 million h1bs in the past 17 years.

            Really, it is.

          • Scowler

            Are you serious?

            I have to point out your division error a second time?

            I can see why they banned you at other sites. Bejeezus.

          • hoapres

            Try again. In Ks

            195@2 = 390 for the two years being 1999 and 2000

            85K@15 = 1275

            Add the two numbers and get 1565 being over 1000.

            Sounds like over a million to me.

          • Mark

            A good rule of thumb is that hoapres is almost always right, except when it comes to his claims of Chinese buying RE in the Silicon Valley with cash :).

          • Mark

            You don’t divide. H-1B visas are cumulative. Once issued, they’re indefinitely renewed, and the holders almost never leave.

      • Marty

        Here’s an estimate as of 2013 from – http://www.epi.org/publication/temporary-foreign-workers-by-the-numbers-new-estimates-by-visa-classification/

        Estimated number of temporary foreign workers employed in the United States, 2013

        Nonimmigrant visa classification or status Number of workers

        H-2A visa for seasonal agricultural occupations 74,859

        H-2B visa for seasonal nonagricultural occupations 94,919

        H-1B visa for specialty occupations 460,749

        J-1 visa for Exchange Visitor Program participants 215,866

        J-2 visa for spouses of J-1 exchange visitors 8,243

        L-1 visa for intracompany transferees 311,257

        L-2 visa for spouses of intracompany transferees 38,952

        O-1/O-2 visa for persons with extraordinary ability (O-2 for their assistants) 29,894

        F-1 visa for foreign students, Optional Practical Training program (OPT) and STEM OPT extensions 139,155

        TN visa or status for Canadian and Mexican nationals in certain professional occupations under NAFTA 50,000

        Total 1,423,894

        • Scowler

          Of which only a small fraction are STEM related and full time employment. Try again.

          • hoapres

            Nope

            Not according to DOL.

          • self

            wrong – the ‘spouses’ get hired in as qa, program managers, and the like again taking jobs meant for Americans.

          • Scowler

            You’ve got to be kidding me. The effect of this is marginal, a few thousand per year at most. Is anybody around here even trying?

    • tenminutetokyo .

      Read “America’s Engineered Decline”.

  • Those are not cake walk jobs. These H1B people have shown their prowess and abilities in tests and interviews for those developer jobs etc. . Unless one has the intellect, such jobs are hard to sustain for the average American. that is why these H1b get those visas. Later many of them end up starting their own companies, startups.

    • hoapres

      Nope got that wrong.

    • Marty

      Yes, I wonder if the H1B people that the Disney employees had to train to do their jobs, were of this calibre? Or were they just cheaper.
      A few are exceptional, but the vast majority are just mediocre and are brought in because they are cheaper.

      • hoapres

        They were cheaper.

    • Rob

      Yes, we’ve heard that marketing campaign started by Tata and Infosys. Now go collect your 50 cents for writing your post.

    • self

      even if they are capable – don’t you want your son/daughter who just took out 50K in student loans to be able to get that first job after college. The H1Bs are getting those slots because they are cheaper – plain and simple. Why should California taxpayers subsidize educations in the UC/CSU system and then those very graduates are put into a market that has hundreds of thousand if not millions of foreigners clamoring for one of those jobs.

      If there was a shortage salaries would have gone up – plain and simple – supply and demand. They have destroyed the balance by importing tons of labor.

      • Rob

        +1

      • tenminutetokyo .

        It is ILLEGAL to hire foreign workers in US jobs under ANY circumstances if Americans are unemployed.

        TITLE 8, Section 1182 INADMISSIBLE ALIENS, SUBSECTION 5.

        https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

        • hoapres

          Uh No.

    • Mark

      Only problem is, Americans aren’t even being invited to the interviews. So how would the employers even know if the Americans stack up or don’t?

      • Bike Helmet Ride

        Most US employers are now controlled by Indians. Including Adobe, Microsoft, and most smaller tech companies. They hate Americans. The “Global Indian Takeover” is in full swing but no one seems to notice. America is being invaded and taken over silently.

    • tenminutetokyo .

      Sorry but Americans built Apple and all the other major US tech companies long before foreign workers arrived.

      Can you guess which tech company this photo is from? Look close now!

      https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/eono4SdV4byJ4sMmXCcf_ETtNZs=/1600×900/2016/03/31/c41c44be-e8af-443f-bc08-ea40e9a341a4/cm83macteamphoto.jpg

    • tenminutetokyo .

      Americans are TRAINING the incoming foreign workers.

      H1B is international socialism and nothing else.

    • Mission accomplished. It’s delightful dude

  • Rob

    Trump is at least recognizing this scam and trying to do something about it.

    Obummer, Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein and Harris would have just kept this scam going, to the detriment of the American worker.

    • Scowler

      Actually, the congressional proposals to increase base minimum salary of H1-B visa (which is clearly the best way to combat abuses) are bipartisan, and are not being driven by the White House, which is clueless on immigration details.

      • self

        those window dressing bills won’t solve the problem. Eliminate H1B, let’s restore equilibrium and encourage Americans to pursue these careers. Anything short really is a disservice to the competitiveness of Americans and our corps

        • hoapres

          I think one has to accept the fact that in the long run the work is going to the cheapest locality.

          I don’t really like that but that is better than what we are doing now by flooding the US and in particular SV with CHEAP foreign labor.

        • Scowler

          Our unemployment was announced today at 4.3%. For STEM professionals it’s even lower. Look at our universities, the STEM majors are chock full of American students.

          You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Probably just a xenophobe.

          • Mark

            Ummm, no, for STEM professionals, unemployment is closer to 2/3rds. Even top grads can submit their applications hundreds of times to the employers and rarely receive so much as the courtesy of a response.

      • hoapres

        The plan to raise the minimum wage for h1bs isn’t going to help much.

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      In 2003 Congressional testimony Feinstein admitted L-1 visa holders pay no taxes.

      And India Incs are importing millions of L-1s and placing them in US jobs.

  • hoapres

    You have a couple of options

    1. You can send the work overseas as the labor costs are cheaper

    OR

    2. You can keep labor costs down by bringing in more foreigners.

    Number 1 is a better choice than number 2 any day of the week.

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      “I have to pay my workers enough to enable them to buy my products”
      — Henry Ford

      Cheap labor will kill any economy fast. Without a healthy middle class consumers base, an economy cannot function.

      Elites and execs do not realize what things cost in America.

      $75K USD is like $750K in India.

      Which is why they all want to come here to remit USD.

  • Bob Williams

    And earning 139K in Silicon Valley is like earning 70K or so in other places. Most of the H1B program usage is not exactly the concept of bringing the best and the brightest to work on cutting edge innovation.

    • Mark

      Very true. You’d want O-1’s for that purpose.

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      Local rents in Silicon Valley are now $3500/mo.

      Meanwhile the Mentor Graphics CEO was caught paying Indians $1.90/hr in violation of all US laws.

  • Reed More

    One of the reasons that so many of the engineers hired are from other countries is because of the education systems. Other countries (Germany, France, Norway, Poland, India) provide low-cost or free university educations for their residents.

    Increasingly Americans are having to pay $100K + for an engineering education and that is only if they can quality for the program. Many public schools are no longer able to prepare students with the required math, computer and other skills required, so there may be additional cost for private schooling at lower levels.

    Trump’s proposed policies cut education spending and immigration which will eventually impact productivity and wages in one of the only high-growth industries in the American economy.

    • Mark

      So the Americans that do get through the programs should be disadvantaged by having foreigners allowed to come into the country and do the jobs they spent the big bucks to be qualified to perform?

      More Americans graduate with STEM degrees than can find jobs by a very considerable margin. Its a slap in the face to allow foreigners in when Americans can’t find jobs in these fields.

      • Reed More

        It is also devastating for our younger generations to be strapped with massive amounts of debt trying to develop the needed job skills to be successful.

        • Mark

          But when our younger generations do get the needed job skills, they shouldn’t be treated like total garbage by having their applications thrown in the garbage, and foreigners hired instead.

          There are more than enough Americans with the requisite STEM degrees to fulfill every job that Apple has. Apple just needs to be willing to hire them.

          • Bike Helmet Ride

            India Incs are on a mission to eliminate all Americans from the workforce, take over all US companies, and move all US jobs back to india, since they are unable to create any companies of their own.

            Indians have a saying among themselves:

            “Loot and remit, die for dollars, outfox the Yankees!”

        • Bike Helmet Ride

          US had a tax SURPLUS and a booming economy before foreign workers arrived to loot the US econ.

          Foreign workers pay no taxes and remit their pay out of the country instead of paying taxes and spending their $ back into the US economy.

          And we wonder why we have such problems………

      • Bike Helmet Ride

        It is illegal to hire ANY foreign worker under US law if Americans are unemployed.

        https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Zuckerberg were all college dropouts. So was Larry Ellison.

      Average Indian IQ is 82 while average American IQ is 98.

      India cannot even engineer enough toilets for its own people and 53% of all Indians in India crap in the streets.

      And we wonder why USA is now starting to look like India.

      • Reed More

        If you are using Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as your argument, then you know that both believed in good is good enough. Microsoft wasn’t the best PKI, but it was good enough for most customers. In today’s world of minimum viable product, it is about having some really smart people to design it and a lot of others to execute.

        The tech companies have long since decided they don’t need the top engineers in every role. When you can hire people who aren’t smothered in $100k in student loans, they will take less money and do the work.

        I don’t like the results of lowered wages and job instability in this industry. I paid my own way and worked full time while I went to school and still had student loans. I was rewarded by paying them off and 3 months later getting laid off in the dot-com bust. When young people ask me if they should go into tech, I tell them to learn to code and then go work doing something you love, because you won’t love this industry, at least not for long.

        • Bike Helmet Ride

          Gates did, Jobs didn’t. Jobs also said “That would be shortsighted – take care of your top line first – your people and products and the bottom line will take care of itself” in response to an MSNBC reporter asking him why he didn’t offshore all Apple work to other countries.

          We all know what happened to him.

          Gates was probably death-threated by the Indian Mafia which rules and controls Silicon Valley.

          iPhone is definitely not minimum viable product.

          The list of failed projects and companies destroyed by MVP thinking is a mile long. Almost all companies cheap labor touches die eventually. IBM is dying now, Sun, Lehman, and PeopleSoft were destroyed by it. If everyone wants to live in a world of cheap crappy junk that fails all the time, have at it. People will stop buying if that is the case.

          “Quality and service pays. Best kept secret on the N American continent.”
          — Tom Peters, management guru and author of In Search of Excellence

          • Reed More

            The only CEOs “death-threated” are getting it from activist shareholders, not some imagined Indian Mafia. I don’t like the H1B program or what it is doing to our workforce, but I’m also not a racist and I don’t need to make up that kind of crap to create some false understanding of the issue.

            If you don’t like immigration policies, blame the companies and politicians that created them and who are the financial benefactors. If you start putting people who are doing the hiring in jail for breaking the rules, the abuse will stop. Blaming the immigrants who are coming here because the jobs are available is victim shaming.

            Every industry has a “luxury brand” – I’d love to have a Viking Range in my house, but I don’t. Some people will choose to spend $1k on a phone, but Apple holds less than 14% of the world market. Most of the middle-class aren’t buying expensive phones and those that take out 3 yr payment plans are also the people who lose their homes during downturns because they are so highly leveraged they can’t sustain it after a job loss or illness.

            I agree the industry is shooting itself in the foot – they’ve moved away from understanding real customer problems and trying to solve them. Instead it’s about what’s cool to build, time to market and stock valuations. I hope at some point we get back to making real things that the majority of people and businesses in the US need, but for whatever reason our whole society is enamored with the rich and bling versus real substance. Manipulation and arbitrage are more profitable and valued than innovation. At some point, we will run out of schemes and have to get back to creating real value.

  • twinsfan1100

    Apple is one of the worst abusers of the H-1B visa. Here are two examples, both from 2016:

    1) One visa for 150 Graphic Designers in Cupertino for a salary of $43950/Year
    https://h1bfacts.com/visa/I-200-15348-390141/2016

    2) One visa for 150 Computer Programmers in Cupertino for a salary of $52832/Year
    https://h1bfacts.com/visa/I-200-15345-631327/2016

    • Mark

      Zero excuses for Apple to be using literally any H-1B visas. Every CS grad in the nation has probably, at some point, submitted their application to Apple. Nearly all are ignored.

      • Bike Helmet Ride

        India Incs and the Indian Mafia will threaten any US CEO who does not go along with their agenda of laying off all Americans and replacing them with Indians. It’s called The Indian Mafia for a reason.

        Oh and iOS 11 is now buggy and slow.

        India Incs are on a mission to prove their workers are better than Americans, which they are not, and to loot as much remittances out of USA as possible.

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      And now Apple’s graphics and website are less than perfect. Bold text that is more bold than it should be, and misplaced text and graphics.

  • tenminutetokyo .

    http:/www.indiots.rocks

  • LC Mitra

    No American coder wants to work as a programmer in Bank of the West or in a small insurance company. They all want to work in Google, Amazon, Facebook… So, someone has to the boring job of day to day database maintenance at a small bank or insurance company.

    • Mark

      Those ‘boring’ companies need to pay more then if they don’t have exciting enough workplaces to attract Americans. But actually those small banks/insurance companies have been firing American workers and hiring foreign nationals on the H-1B visa. The insurance and financial sectors being some of the most enthusiastic abusers of the visa, either directly, or through outsourcing their entire IT department to firms whose only competitive advantage is in visa abuse.

      • Bike Helmet Ride

        And then everything collapses like it did in 2008 and the India Incs organized crime syndicates move in and loot the companies into oblivion. Just ask Lehman, which is no more.

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      Google, Amazon, and Facebook are all full of foreign workers now. Americans are not allowed to work there, thanks to marauding bands of India Incs who invade and take over every US company.

  • Mrs. Fuxit

    American workers who pledge loyalty to their management, and shareholders are at war for more benefits. Corporate Control exceeds employee rights. Online courts are where people can succeed. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/65b1b92a1444957212b2ed15d6353b344c12ad2be9cd1e37730474ad009ccb40.jpg

    • Bike Helmet Ride

      How much profit is enough profit? $250 billion in the bank?

      If not, then how much is?

      Too much wealth is being held by corporations – more than they can ever use – at the expense of workers who build the companies.

      How does this differ from slavery?

  • Bike Helmet Ride

    And now iOS 11 is buggy and slow.

    Apple products used to be perfect.

    Not anymore, thanks to wannabe foreign workers.

    H1B and India Incs are just mass organized crime syndicates and looting systems. US is being drained dry by remittances and industrial theft, as Epic Systems found out the hard way

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/us-jury-slaps-940-million-fine-on-tcs-tata-america-international-corp-in-trade-secret-case/articleshow/51853894.cms

 
 
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